A Conversation with New York State Comptroller Tom DiNapoli

UUP President Fred Kowal sits down with New York State Comptroller Tom DiNapoli for an in-studio interview that covers DiNapoli's longtime role as a trusted friend of UUP and organized labor. 

In 2024, UUP honored Tom with our Friend of SUNY award, which recognizes distinguished service to SUNY and the progressive development of public higher education in our state. 

Kowal and DiNapoli also talk about DiNapoli's political career, his strong support of SUNY and public higher education, his handling of the state's pension plan and his upcoming contested reelection bid in November. 

In Labor Lookback, episode producer Mike Lisi goes back in time to revisit the  1937 Detroit Woolworth's sit-down strike and provides an entertaining history of labor's favorite rodent, Scabby the Rat. 

Special thanks to The Workers' Mic podcast, which interviewed Scabby's creator, Jim Sweeney, in 2024; and to Albany NY pop band C. Jane Run, which allowed us to use part of their song "Standby." 

In Kowal's Coda, Kowal discusses two books that's he's reading, Ian Toll's "Twilight of the Gods: War in the Western Pacific, 1944-1945" and SUNY College of Environmental Science Professor Robin Wall Kimmerer's "Braiding Sweetgrass." 

Transcript

Fred Kowal: 0:00

Hello. I'm Fred kowall, President of United University professions, and this is the voice I am.

Mike Lisi: 0:33

Us. The Voice Podcast is a production of United University professions, the nation's largest higher education union, representing more than 42,000 academic and professional faculty and retirees at state operated SUNY campuses across New York State. UUP also represents employees at SUNY system administration and SUNY public teaching hospitals in Brooklyn, Stony Brook and Syracuse. I'm Mike Lisi.

Fred Kowal: 1:10

New York State Comptroller, Tom DiNapoli comes from a working class union family, so he knows the meaning of hard work and the importance of honesty and integrity. Those are great attributes to have, especially when you oversee the state's pension fund, one of the largest pension funds in the country. The Pension Fund has swelled under Tom's leadership during the first six months of the 2526 fiscal year. The fund's investment return was nearly 10% bringing its estimated value to$291.4 billion as a state employee who hopes to someday be a state retiree, this is welcome news. He's been a watchful, knowledgeable steward of the fund, and he's led it through some trying times, including 2008 great recession and the pandemic we trust Tom, and that can certainly be said for other unions like CSEA, PEF, AFS me, District Council 37 and the Transport Workers Union, which have endorsed him for his November campaign. He's made state spending more transparent through open book New York, a web portal with links to state contracts, state spending and data on local governments and public authorities. Tom's anti corruption initiative, which investigates pension fraud and fraud in state and local governments, has resulted in nearly 400 arrests and $105 million in recovered taxpayer dollars. And if that's not enough, Tom made it really easy for New Yorkers to recover lost money by publicizing the state's unclaimed funds webpage. More than $500 million went back to New Yorkers in state fiscal year 2023 24 that's real money back in real people's pockets. Tom has always been a strong supporter of public higher education and a good friend to UUP. That's why we honored his support of public higher education with our friend of UUP award in 2024 we also want to recognize him because of the fact he supports the work that UUP members do. Tom Welcome to The Voice podcast.

Unknown: 3:21

Well, Fred, thank you for that most generous introduction. I remember when I received that honor. It really meant a lot to me, because we've had a wonderful partnership with you, with your leadership team, and certainly when I participate in new up events across the state, I just really admire the dedication, the enthusiasm of your members, they do so much to keep public higher education the great, great asset and resource that it is for all of New York. So just thank you for always extending the opportunity for me to support your great efforts and great efforts of UUP.

Fred Kowal: 3:55

And we're union, and we believe so strongly in the importance of what unions can do, and clearly, through your record of public service and in all of the ways that you have stood up with unions and for unions, I'll ask you about public higher education and public education in general, why is it such a central part of your priorities in public service and the work you do? Well, I'll

Unknown: 4:20

answer that in a couple ways. I mean, first of all, in terms of public education, generally, I am a product of the public school system in New York, and I think about, you know, my family's story or history probably no different than most folks in New York. My grandparents were immigrants. Came here with, you know, no education, and just came here with hopes and dreams, right? My parents were born here, born and raised on Long Island, and went to public school. My mother actually Italian was the first language in her house, so it was really the public school system that gave her the very important gift of the English language. And they were high school graduates, and that for them was enough for them to get decent jobs. Is represented by strong unions, I might add, I'll add in the importance of unions picking up on what you've said earlier. Fred, my dad was a communication worker, a shop steward, and my mom, when she went back to the workforce after I got a little older, she was a CSEA member, worked as a clerk in Nassau County, so it was growing up and going through the public school system and parents represented by strong unions that gave us the opportunity to have a secure middle class lifestyle in Long Island for me to be the first one in my family to go on to college, I ended up going to Hofstra, which is not a public university, but it's a very good private university. We love Hofstra, but certainly I have seen, in terms of other members of my family, or certainly just being involved, as I have been for so many years in New York State, the critical importance of public higher education, because it's it is certainly an issue of access, which I think, as we go through this really incredibly challenging time, as far as affordability, everybody's talking about it, you know, I think we've Been talking about costs for a while. Yeah, we have one, a one word label for it, right? So that issue of access to higher education, which, no disrespect to the privates, but the public university system, be it SUNY or CUNY, is really set up to be an opportunity for access. And I what I have also seen in the evolution of public higher ed in New York State is quality, you know, I think you go back years ago. I think some people say, Well, you know, you know, you kind of go to a SUNY as a fallback, right? You know, that's not the case anymore. In fact, it's just the opposite, and you're going to find access to academic excellence and quality in CUNY. In SUNY, you look at our university centers, and really, you look at all the all the cuts and colleges, university on the public side, and you look at the challenges that the private colleges and universities are facing now, there obviously have been struggles. You know, I've talked about it in terms of funding for SUNY, and some of the campuses have had cutbacks in terms of courses and staffing and so on. It's an ongoing issue. But look at what's happened with the privates? They've actually closed colleges. They got out of business. You know, Casanova is right from what the early 1800s right? They've been in Business College of St rose here in the Capital District, Medallia. And there are a couple of others we know that are kind of on the edge. So there's been a stability with the public higher education system in New York State that I think has been so important. Look, for many people still getting that college degree, whether it's an associate's or a bachelor's or master's or beyond, that is the pathway to success. Now for everybody, this past week was Apprenticeship Week, so our friends in the trades, you know, we're here in the capital, and for some folks, that is the pathway to success, but for so many you do need that higher education. And so maintaining the access to quality higher education is the mission of SUNY and of CUNY. And the importance of UUP as a union of professional educators who advocate for support for SUNY is so very, very important. Because look, you know, at budget time, there were so many competing interests out there. You know, you're in the capital a lot. And I, you know, I think higher education generally needs to be celebrated more in New York. You know, we put a report out not that long ago, the impact of higher education, both public and private, a significant employer. Close to 300,000 people work in higher education, the consumer spending, over $15 billion a key part of the economy, the amount of money, the billions that goes into, into research and development. A lot of that going through, you know, the Sunni system as well. That is such a key driver of our economy. So it's important for the students, you know, I was going to say, for the young people, but we more and more appreciate lifelong learning, right? And you don't, you don't have to, you don't have to be just coming out of high school to get a degree or take a course at a SUNY campus. So it's such a key part. And you know, as we navigate a changing landscape with the economy, we're all talking about the impact of AI, artificial intelligence, disrupting workforce, taking away some of the traditional entry level jobs that many people had as a beginning of a career. I think more and more having the credential, having the college degree, is going to be important to some of those more higher skilled new jobs that may be created as part part of the AI environment. So I just see a tremendous benefit at many, many levels for investing in public higher education. And I will point out, although I went to Hofstra, and, as you know, Fred, I got my master's from the new school, I think, as you also recall, I did go to SUNY Stony Brook. You did briefly when I had a dream of getting my PhD in history, which, unfortunately, I just had a hard time managing being a state assembly member and going to Albany and going out to Stony Brook. But I did get two courses under my belt, and I scored an A minus in each one, so I could check the transcript at SUNY Stony Brook. So So I actually did see personal. The the excellence, although I can't brag that I have a Sunni degree, I did have a Sunni experience, and it was a very, very

Fred Kowal: 10:06

positive one. Yeah, you know, as you were talking about, you know, going to Hofstra. And I thought back, yeah, my undergrad was at a small liberal arts college. We would call them, no, we would call them a comprehensive in SUNY. It was Western New England College. Now it's University. Everything's a university. And then I got my master's in economics from American University, PhD at Albany. And it was the experience at University at Albany. Some of it might have been my maturity at that point, but hands down, the best education I got was from the faculty and great staff at the University at Albany. I treasure them now as union colleagues, but also as scholars. You mentioned history. So I want, I want to take you back in my notes, I refer to you as a battle tested State Comptroller, and it started right. Soon after you became State Comptroller, you were in office for less than a year, selected by a bipartisan legislature to replace the former Comptroller, Alan Hevesi, and then the great recession hit. Can you tell us a little bit? What was that like when you were staring down my son was working on Wall Street at the time, and he was telling me, and he was a young man, very young at the time, fresh out of college, and he was terrified by what they were seeing that. He described it as being a situation where we were within days, if not hours, of a global financial collapse. Yeah. What was it like for you, given your your responsibilities with the pension system, but also, in general, the New York state economy?

Unknown: 11:37

Yeah. I mean, I mean, certainly, first and foremost, as trustee for the pension fund, we're fortunate to have a lot of your members in that members in that plan. We went from the fund was about 154 billion back then down to like 109 billion. I mean, just within one year, that kind of 26% drop in value. And so staring at those numbers and saying, How are we going to continue to fund? You know, the pensions and is this more than a one time event? Is this? Is this what the new normal is going to be? So I think, you know, a couple of lessons of that time. Number one is, you know, you can't control what you can't control, right? It was a global financial disruption that, obviously, a lot of it had to do with the mortgage crisis issue in the US, but you just had to fasten your seat belt and not make any precipitous decisions or quick moves and have confidence that you are in it for the long haul, which we are as a pension fund, right? We're a perpetual investor. The folks I felt worse for were the person who was about to retire, and they had a 401 K and they didn't have a defined benefit pension, yep, and the 401 K was wiped out. What was the phrase? Is that your 401 K became a 201 k, right? And a lot of folks had to put off their retirement back then. So it was a reinforcement of the fact that if you really want to talk about retirement security, a defined benefit, pension is the way to ensure retirement security. It is unfortunate that on the corporate side, so much of America has moved away from defined benefit pension, which is why we have a retirement security issue. Some would say a crisis in this country, for folks that, you know, people can live just on Social Security, and not everybody's able to save depending on what their, you know, their income situation is, and the 401, case, I think that's still an issue today, if you hit your retirement years at a time when the markets are down, you're just not gonna be able to retire. So I think one of the takeaways was certainly to look again at our asset allocation moving forward, and then have confidence in it. And no matter what the ups and downs are, even if you have some down years, and you know, some years are better than others. We don't want to see another global financial crisis. We don't want to see another covid close down. But when that happens, you still should be investing and not retreat from just being active. Whether that's a public equity investment or a private equity investment, whatever it may be, look in terms of the state's economy, you're absolutely right. That drove down the revenue coming to the state. Some very tough budget decisions were made. Then, I guess David Patterson was the governor. Then David ended up in the position because he ascended to it when the previous governor had to resign. I was in a similar position, whereas you point out, right, my predecessor had to resign and I was appointed to it. So we both kind of were thrown into this whirlwind of a time. And you know, looking back, we got through it. We got through the covid. Closed down as well, which wasn't a severe downturn, but just in terms of history, keep in mind 1999 2000 2001 the.com bubble burst, and 911 happened. So we had a similar circumstance. So I guess one of the concerns I have is it seems that every 10 years or so we have a disruption, you know, which is why, certainly in terms of managing the pension fund, we keep a priority on keeping the plan well funded, because the states that have run into real trouble with poorly funded pensions, or in the worst case scenario where they can't keep up with the funding. So Pennsylvania, for example. Moved off of a defined benefit pension. They have like a hybrid, partial defined contribution, partial defined benefit. We keep the plan well funded whether the times are good or bad, because when the bad times come again, if you are a poorly funded public pension plan in a good time and the bad time comes, it just makes your challenging situation even worse, and you kind of never come out from under it, because we are well funded, and that's been our tradition. Even when we come up to a global financial crisis or a covid Close down, we are able to weather it and bounce back pretty quickly. So even in the context of the numbers you gave earlier, you think back and we're 101 50 billion or so back then dip down 209 billion and now actually up the December 31 estimated an update even on to what you said in the intro, we were like, oh, open. So $300 billion and that's paying out benefits. Fred, last year of $16.8 billion benefits paid out. So the fund is growing, even at the same time that the benefits we have to pay out are growing. We know in 2026 the world is complicated. There's a lot going on right now that's impacting markets and will be for a while. We don't know for how long, but again, when people worry that, you know, with the gyrations on the market, I say, look, we've been through some of this before. We're well funded, we're going to be able to weather it and just have confidence. And for your members and all public workers who are part of the retirement system, it is set up to be an all weather plan, and we anticipate some years are going to be challenging, some years are going to be great, but it'll all balance out. You know, as you know, our long term investment goal is 5.9% return. Most public pension plans actually are closer to 7% so we have a more conservative outlook. I have confidence. So whatever people may see as far as ups and downs in the markets, we've been through a lot worse. We'll be fine. We'll be fine.

Fred Kowal: 16:51

You get up in the morning like I did yesterday. Get up in the morning early, and BBC is reporting that the Asian markets have opened and stocks are tumbling. Oil prices are soaring. And then President Trump came out, and because I had seen the BBC posting, I knew exactly what he was doing, he came out and said, Oh no, there's negotiations ongoing. Markets recover. Oil prices crash today, with the attacks on Israel and other things ongoing, the markets are suffering. Oil prices are back up. How do you navigate that kind of chaos in the marketplace? Is that where your approach really bears fruit, because it's almost steady as we go

Unknown: 17:36

through the rough waters. I mean, look, when you're as large as we are, any large ship is very hard to turn. So if you want to make some major tactical shifts, by the time you actually were able to implement all of that, the dynamic would change all over again. So that's why you really have to do a very thoughtful asset allocation. You have to have a diversified portfolio. It's what most people do in terms of their own finances. I don't know too many people. If you're lucky enough to have money to invest, you don't put all your eggs in one basket, as the saying goes. So a pension fund is no different in that regard. And in fact, we have lessened slightly our investments in the stock market because of the volatility. The challenge for me, though, Fred is the state plan, which is a little different than the state teachers and New York City plans, we value our fund on March 31 right? So the other plans value at the end of June. March has always been a difficult I don't know why your last year was Liberation Day. Remember, President announced at the middle of March, and everything went down. It went way back up, but we got caught in the down. So last year we were at about a 5.84 return, just shy of the 5.9 even you mentioned the global financial crisis in that year, the worst of it was like mid March. Yeah. So this March, I said, at the end of February, we're really on track for a double digit return, as long as the president doesn't do anything a little crazy so he decides to have a war go on. So I took it personal. But again, we have, we had 11 months of very strong return. So I have confidence in her asset allocation. It is steady as she goes. And the reason we're diversified, it's an interesting thing when the markets are real, when stock market is doing well, everybody says, Tom, how can you have more money in the stock market? And the stock market is doing poorly, is, why do you have so much money in the risky stock market? So we have, obviously, the biggest part of the portfolio, about 40% is in the public markets. The stocks are all familiar with, about 23 24% of fixed income, which is very stable. You tend not to make a lot of money, but you're not losing money there. And the rest of it's in the alternative. So that's where private equity, real estate, infrastructure, has been a new asset allocation. And we do that to be diversified, and to have investments that are not totally correlated to the ups and downs of the markets. I still think that's a smart strategy. It's going to serve as well. We went into this cycle right now about 95% funded. That's that's a fully funded public pension plan. We're one of the best funded. We're the best funded of all the big state plans in the country. And, yeah, so. It is being thoughtful. We do a deep dive every five years on our asset allocation, but once we have it in place, we stick with it, and we're then very selective on the investments that we have. And we do a lot of investing in house, low cost, especially on the public markets, with the private markets, we are very careful before we do an investment, and it's a strategy that's worked for us.

Fred Kowal: 20:21

You are facing a competitive primary and political situation is very volatile, very unpredictable, and your competitors have criticized your leadership of the state pension fund. They're saying that you've mismanaged the fund, that it should be larger than it is now, speaking personally, criticism doesn't make much sense to me, because you've received glowing independent fiduciary reviews of the fund and how you have handled investment oversight, risk management and governance, as you were saying. What do you have to say to those who say, we, quote, unquote, should be doing much better than we are?

Unknown: 20:57

Well, a lot of it's cheap shots, right? I mean, you know you could certainly look backwards and say, Well, if you had put more money here or there, now that I know what the results were, you know, again, I think

Fred Kowal: 21:06

they're coming. I'm a football fan. I like sports, and I was, I root for the Patriots, okay, this was a bad Super Bowl for us. And I was looking back and saying, Yeah, and we should have done this, and we should have done that the Monday morning, morning back, right? Is that

Unknown: 21:20

what we're talking about? Yeah, that's very much what it is. And, you know, I just think our numbers have held up more than fine in comparison to other plans and other funds. And I just think a lot of it's cheap shots, not based on reality. You know, another area, you know, some of them are criticizing, you know, oh, we're giving money to Wall Street. Well, some of our money is managed by investment professionals, and they're not doing it for free, but when you look at our fees, the question is, are the fees reasonable? And that's where you know you mentioned the independent fiduciary review, which showed that we are on par with our peers in terms of fees that are charged. There's another review which is about to be made public. We're regulated by the Department of Financial Services, DFS. It's also going to, I can preview, yeah, that is it's gonna say, in terms of fees, very much reasonable, in terms of how so they're exaggerating, and really, they're misconstruing the numbers, and they're playing with the numbers. I just hope most people don't fall into the trap of believing what they say just because they say it, they're just wrong, and I can stand by our numbers with a great deal of pride and assurance to the members of the system. The plan is well managed. We are well funded because we have smart investment team, and we also have the fiscal discipline that at the end of the year, when we look at all the information, because it's not just the investment return. It's payrolls reflecting recent salary increases. It's longevity and mortality. People are living a lot longer, so we have to factor in the payouts are going longer. You know, there's a big discussion on tier six reform. Tier six, right? Some enhancements have been made in the past. Some more may happen in 2026 I think that's a fair observation that also is going to increase some of our costs, but we're going to have the money there to pay for whatever the benefit level that the legislature and the governor come up with. So I think their criticisms are completely misplaced.

Fred Kowal: 23:14

We have always been a very strong supporter of yours, and I'm not going to pull any punches here. But Does it worry you? Because it worries me that if someone who misleads in a campaign in terms of what the reality is, and then is put into a position, you know, being state comptroller is not like being no insult intended a state senator or a union president, you know, we're not entrusted with something so vast as the pension system. Does it worry you at all that an individual may get in there and take steps that could undermine what has been built as a very strong system? Because there are other big states, Illinois, for example, prime example, yeah, these pension systems can get into real trouble, and people will get hurt if the leadership is poor. Now look, it's

Unknown: 24:09

one of the reasons why I chose to seek the position again. And I'm not saying I'm the only person in the world that can do the job, but I know we're doing a good job. I know we have a great team, not just on pension fund management, but all the other responsibilities that we have, and certainly now that I see the folks that have been coming out of the woodwork to try to challenge me, and then, you know me well enough I don't. I'm not a brag or both person. My mama raised me never, never swelled hedge better than anybody else. Don't forget it. And her voice has been in my ears all these years that even though She's long gone, but I look at what they're saying and who they are. They're folks who made their own money. They're not working class people, they're multi millionaires, and they're presuming to really disrupt the way we provide retirement security, like they know better because they made a bunch of money, I don't think they know any better. They're proposing changes in terms of managing the pension. Fund or what it would be used for that it's almost like treating it like it's their little investment piggy bank, and it's not what it is. We have to keep in mind and some of the choices we make, and you and I have talked about it. Not everybody loves every place we put the money, but at the end of the day, we have to make the best judgments that we can that we're securing the benefits for our members. We have 1.2 million New Yorkers who are part of this Retirement System. And because we're so big, especially on the public side, the stocks, we're going to be invested pretty much everywhere, because a lot of our money is in index funds. A lot of folks have index funds, mutual funds, they don't even know what's in it, but we know that we're in these big index funds, which means you have broad exposure. Sometimes you're in companies that I may not personally want to be invested in, but if they are part of the index and they're making money and they're operating legally, you know, it's, you know, we're not putting money in bogus operations, people may quibble about, as you know, the issues come about, fossil fuels, for example, and of late, there have been some other or Tesla, right? There's a big move, not that long ago, divest from Tesla. You know, it's like, you know, I don't like Elon Musk, and when we as a shareholder, we try to move these companies. We voted against Musk's pay package. We don't think anybody's worth a trillion dollars. Maybe you're worth a trillion dollars. Elon Musk is not worth a trillion dollars in my book, but it is a company that has made money in the past. It's had its ups and downs. I think for a lot of us, you know, the issue of electronic vehicles is part of the climate change issue. You got to give Tesla credit for having an important role there. So to divest from Tesla because we don't like musk or we don't like his politics, you know, I think that goes too far. I think it's more important, even when you have a company like that that you have some concerns, stay at the table. You want them to be profitable. You want to press them to be better corporate citizens. You want them not to be playing in right wing politics, yeah, well, frankly, or left wing politics, we don't, I don't really want them there to be all kinds of political judgments. That's why we have a initiative on disclosure political spending by corporations as well. We want them to make money for us and for our members.

Fred Kowal: 27:06

You mentioned fossil fuels and in 22 in 2022 you restricted investments in 21 shale oil and gas companies because they had not proven that they were prepared to transition to a low carbon economy. As you work to transition the fund's investment portfolio to net greenhouse gas emissions by 2040 restricting investments in oil and gas because the companies are showing they're not ready to transition is, obviously, is a very important issue to a lot of our members. To myself, personally, I mentioned my my other work in the National Wildlife Federation. Can you give us an update as to how that's progressing?

Unknown: 27:43

Well, we continue to monitor the numbers. Now. When you look at Coal, shale oil and gas, tar sands, integrated oil and gas, there have been many more companies that we've restricted. When we say restricted, it's a combination. In some cases, it means we've not been invested in them, and we're not going to. So it's like a do not buy list. In other cases, we had been investing in them, and we're choosing not to invest in them anymore. So in effect, a divestment in probably the biggest example of where we found a company falling short and not meeting what we call our minimum standards, Exxon. We sold off our actively managed shares in Exxon, but the parts that were still in the index fund, frankly, because it was a large stake, we did an economic analysis, and it would have thrown the index out of whack had we got rid of all of Exxon. So it continues to be a process. We're completing a review now of utility investments. I don't know that there can be any additional divestments and restrictions, utilities tend to be kind of on the front line of doing the right thing. And we all know there's a big issue now about access to power and electricity. Part of it's the affordability question. One of the real challenges now, as far as that transition, is this crazy set of priorities coming out of Washington. You know, it's a big debate going on in New York now, with the very ambitious climate goals that the state has, and the governor has said, we're not meeting the timeframe, there's a big debate about, how do we adjust? Do we not adjust so many of the ways in which New York was hoping to promote more renewables? You know, wind farms, solar, you know, the Trump administration is gutting all the incentives that have been there for that. So here we are. We're trying to do the right thing as a state. We're trying to do the right thing as a pension fund, and we got national policy going totally the opposite way. So we're going to continue to monitor companies. And part of the strategy we deal with a Climate Action Plan. That's where this all began. And we had an advisory committee that did not recommend divesting. They said you need a multi pronged stroke, in some cases, restrict or divest with the companies you're still invested in if you feel they not doing what they need to do to disclose greenhouse gas emissions or comport with powers, engage with them, press them vote against their board of directors. And then the other piece that that frankly, we don't get as much credit for as I think we should, is. Investing in opportunities climate solutions. We have put an allocation of $40 billion to go to climate solutions and sustainable investing. We've got about $28 billion out the door. We want to be part of providing capital for those alternatives, the cleaner energy options, and what we think is taking advantage. Look, whatever Trump is doing, the rest of the world is moving to deal with climate change as a reality. So keep in mind, when we invest Fred, we are a global investor, so we have still seen opportunities in terms of some of these renewable and clean energy options, not always in the US, but we find them globally. So we still have this multi pronged approach with our climate action plan, we just did an update and put it on our website if any of your listeners or members want to see it, and it's up there to give it, to give a review as to where we're at. And we believe climate change is real. We believe, as an investor, it's a material risk, and we believe there are not simple solutions, right? If selling stock in fossil fuels was going to solve the climate crisis, I think I'd be the first one to say, Okay, let's do it. All selling stock does is let someone else buy it, except in extreme cases, we have chosen not to do divestment or restriction, but to stay engaged and to press the companies we invest in. But as you point out, we have done some restrictions and some divestments, and we'll be continuing to monitor to see if we need to do more.

Fred Kowal: 31:21

Just yesterday, and I was trying to remember, it's a French company that had purchased areas that were being set aside off the coast of the Atlantic and the Gulf, I think the Gulf as well, okay, and they were going to be putting in big offshore wind. And the Trump administration basically made them an offer they couldn't refuse. They bought back the leases that they had purchased with the condition that this company instead invest in a production facility for liquefied natural gas that then would be exported to Europe. Wow. So at a time when the pressure on us as consumers is that the supply of electricity is not keeping pace with demand, thanks to the data data centers and so forth and so, rates are going up. They're going through the roof. The supply keeps shrinking. And without offshore wind, this is going to hit the Northeast and mid Atlantic states, and that liquefied natural gas is going to go to Europe, and it's going to make the natural gas companies, oil companies, wealthier, which was, of course, that was Trump's answer when somebody confronted him and said gas prices are going up. And he said, Well, we're going to make money on it. I'm not making money on it. I don't think you are either.

Unknown: 32:36

And on top of it, we've had the coldest winter that we've had in a long time. So we've gotten a lot of and it's some of it's heartbreaking, you know, people having electric utility bills, you know, $1,000 you know, it's like crazy. Yeah, I know mine spiked up, certainly.

Fred Kowal: 32:52

But yes, mine did too.

Unknown: 32:54

But you know, what's the long term and then, of course, the disruption now coming out of the Middle East. I mean, who knows what the long term situation is going to be. It's very, very troubling. You know, you mentioned data centers, that's, yeah, there's a big push, and we've been pressing to, we just did a communication with many of our portfolio companies to say, if you're involved with data centers, you should be taking responsibility for power supply and water supply. Yes, it's good, or also and, and even Trump was calling on them to do it as well, you know. So I think there's a recognition that they're going to make a lot of money off of this, and they've got to put some of that back into making sure communities are not disrupted. But you know what the challenge is? Our phones are becoming our office and whether on your computer or your phone, and all that stuff that's happening, it's being processed somewhere, right? We're all a part of what's creating the demand for the data centers, right? So we have to own some of this ourselves in terms of disability, and sometimes it's hard for people to to recognize.

Fred Kowal: 33:50

So, you know, we face all these challenges. You're, as you mentioned, you're in a heated primary with with challenging circumstances where facts don't seem to be important to some, not

Unknown: 34:02

always new in politics, so I just haven't had to deal with it in a long time.

Fred Kowal: 34:07

Yeah, so what is it, you know, and it's easy. I mean, I'll speak personally. It's easy for me to get depressed when I see what's happening. What keeps you going? And do you remain optimistic? You're a public servant. Your entire life has been public service. What keeps you going and keeps you hopeful? You know,

Unknown: 34:27

it's an interesting question, because I am optimistic and I am hopeful, and I wouldn't be in I wouldn't have this as my avocation if I wasn't. I'm a bit older than I was when I first started on this journey. You know, you remember the story. I ran for Board of Education at age 18. I was a senior in high school. Had a lot of idealism coming out of the late 60s, early 70s, you know, inspired by Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King and all that, all the movements going on, anti Vietnam war, civil rights, you know, this movement first Earth Day was when I was in high school. I. And I always had a sense that we can change the world for the better, and especially when the world, and back then the world was being out of control, that we had to be engaged. And we've gone through some tough times and some good times since then, I kind of feel like we're going through a tough time again now. And I've always felt that it was important to be engaged in the fight, to be on the front line of the battle to try to contribute to make things better. And I do think things will be better, like I'm a person of faith as well. I just believe there is a plan out there somewhere that that another hand is guiding us, not always apparent which way it's going. But I feel, especially, you know, for this position, and you kind of touched on it, having experience, having a proven track record, having a great team of people, one reason why I want to stay in the position. We put together a great team like you. I love the people I work with, right? It to me, this is not a job. If it was a job, I probably, I probably would say time for me to take my pension. It is a it's a privilege to serve, and it is, from my perspective, important for me to be engaged in a positive way to move our state forward in what little way that I can. I mean, look, the controller. You know, when I was a legislator, I had more, in some ways, direct role to change law, make law. I'm not the governor. I don't veto bills or signed bills, or, you know, it's a totally different role, but, but our little piece of the world is still a very, very important one, you know. So that accountability agenda, with the audits that we do with making sure the business of government functions, employees get paid, contractors get paid, nonprofits get their grants. Local government get their grants. The pension fund, as we talked about extensively the college savings plan we administer the 529, college savings plan, putting out a report, as we just did, on the inadequacy of tap and our need to have the tuition assistance program be kept up to current realities. I mean, those are ways we can move an agenda. And certainly, you know, as we talked about a lot in this conversation, securing the retirements for 1.2 million New Yorkers. You know, hey, my mom was a clerical worker, and you've heard me tell the story. She used to love getting the statements from the State Controller's Office that said how many years she'd sit at the kitchen table, how many years she have in the system? What would it mean for her pension? And as you also may recall, my mom died while she was still working, right? So she never, she never got to benefit from that pension. But I remember what it meant for her to know that in her golden years there would be a pension there for her. And I always try to say to my folks, we talk the big numbers all the time, right?$300 billion here, 1.2 it's real people, real families, you know, like my mother, that depend on what we're doing. And my dad, he worked, you know, for old Ma Bell, they still had a defined benefit pension. And so he, when he retired, yeah, like 40 years of the company, he was able to stay in the house that he and my mom built after the war. And he's a veteran. He came back, he got married, start having kids, yep, built this house and and he was in there until he died at 92 because he had personal savings. He was a child of the Depression, very frugal, Social Security. Thank you. Franklin Roosevelt and the Democrats of the time, and he had a defined benefit pension. It wasn't a big pension, but that three legged stool, which was what so much of American middle class was built on years ago. He still had that. A lot of folks don't have that anymore. So I even say our friends and colleagues on the public side concerned about tier six and all that. Just keep in mind a lot of folks out there that don't have any pension. Yeah, that's right. So we want to, we want to enhance the benefits, but we also need to keep the plan well funded. It's that balancing act, so, so my job will be, when we see how the tiers, how tier six is adjusted, we'll make sure we're making the smart choices on how we invest so we have the money to pay for the pension. Thankfully, we have a constitutional guarantee for the pensions, which is why UUP helping to lead the charge with NYSUT and others to stop the Constitutional Convention a few years ago, which partially was an agenda to take away that guarantee. But my job is to make sure we have the money that in fact, we can fulfill that guarantee. And we've done that honorably, and we've done it effectively, and I want to continue to do that. So, yeah, I'm still hopeful we're going to, you know what? This too shall pass with Donald Trump, I swear. Well, maybe not fast enough, but it will. And I look at New York, I can't say I've been to every state in the Union, but New York is the best state to be a part of, the energy, the human resources, the talent, it's all here. Do we have our internal challenges and confrontations and disagreements? Sure, that's part of what being in New York is about. It certainly spills into the politics. But at the end of the day, the New York team is a good team. It's a strong team, and the rest of the world looks to New York, we are going to lead the nation in working to build a more caring and inclusive society. I think that's what the New York ethos has always been about. I'm glad my grandparents came over from Italy and settled in New York, and we stayed in New York and many other nice places to visit in the country, but I'll always be a New

Fred Kowal: 39:56

Yorker well, and New York is fortunate to have you in. This position and doing the work that you're doing, it's been a pleasure, as always, just to have a conversation with you, but especially in this setting. Thompson, Apley, State Comptroller, thank you for all that you're doing on behalf of uups members and all the workers in New York State, and let's hope you continue to do so. Thank you, my

Unknown: 40:16

friend and Fred. I look forward to our continued partnership, and UUP is such a key voice in the whole mix of making New York State a stronger place. And thank you to your members what they do day in day out on our campuses across our state. Thank you for your leadership as president of UUP.

Fred Kowal: 40:31

Appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

Mike Lisi: 40:42

You welcome to labor. Look back where we take a look back at labor storied past, from strikes and uprisings to dynamic union leaders and huge union wins. We'll cover it all. Here's a look back at labor history from the month of March, February, 27 1937 dawned as just another chilly Saturday for shoppers and Management at F W Woolworth's main downtown store in Detroit. But 108 women who worked as department store clerks at the Woodward Avenue store had other ideas. They were unhappy, and they had reason to be the Woolworths women worked long shifts and pocketed just 25 cents an hour, overtime paid, there was none, even though many of them worked over 48 hours each week and they were expected to smile and engage with shoppers, despite being on their feet for hours at a time, their breaks were short and they were constantly harassed by managers and others hired by the store to pose as shoppers, the women had a list of what they wanted, eight hour shifts, A 10 cent per hour raise and time and a half overtime pay, they wanted company provided uniforms, seniority rights and union recognition from a company that profited from hiring cheap non union labor. So they took a cue from the fledgling United Auto Workers Union, which just two weeks before, waged and won a 44 day sit down strike, the first of its kind against General Motors. A sit down strike is just what it sounds like. Workers would stop working, lock the doors and occupy their workplaces, which gave workers the upper hand in getting management to consider their demands. The impact of the UAW strike was dramatic. Not only did UAW membership jump from 30,000 to 500,000 in a year's time, within two weeks, it set off a wave of nearly 90 sit down strikes in Detroit alone, that according to the Library of Congress, Woolworth's strike was one of them author Dana Frank in her 2002 book, three strikes, miners, musicians, sales, girls and the fighting spirit of Labor's last century, writes that the Woolworth strike began after waiters and waitresses union of Detroit organizer Floyd Lowe walked in the store and blew a shrill whistle, the signal to workers that the strike had started. The Detroit News reported at the time, quote, The jangle of cash registers stopped and bewildered customers found themselves holding out nickels and dimes in vain, but not a girl tried to wait on a customer. UNQUOTE, the women were quickly ushered into a conference room to meet with the store manager, William Mayer. Mayer hemden hawd promising he would consider their demands that following Monday, if the clerks would just leave the store, they saw through his ruse, and they refused. In fact, they made themselves comfortable. Mattresses were delivered to the store by strike supporters, family members, delivered food and personal belongings, and the store's iconic lunch counter was used to prepare meals. Newspaper and radio reporters flocked to the store, where they found the women, some dressed in their Woolworth's uniforms, laughing, smiling, and at times, yelling out a chant that mocked Woolworth's heiress, Barbara Hutton, a well known socialite who lived a notorious lifestyle the media and the public fell in love with Woolworth's defiant quote. Working girls, unquote, who knew the press coverage protected them from arrest. The situation was already a huge public relations nightmare for Woolworth's sending in police to drag the women from the building would make things that much worse still, management refused to negotiate, which prompted a sit down strike at a second Detroit Woolworths store, and a threat by the waiters and waitresses union to call for a national Woolworth strike if management didn't negotiate on March 5, seven days after the strike began, Woolworth's management crumbled. It, employees got a five cent an hour increase and time and a half pay after a 48 hour week, the company also agreed to provide uniforms and launder them for free. The strike success was magical. Copycat strikes broke out at retail stores all over the country. The 1937 Broadway musical needles and pins was spurred in part by the Woolworth strike quote that was the brilliance of it. It wasn't some mythical superheroes who had pulled it off. Frank writes, but regular young women with no experience of striking, let alone of occupying a major chain store 24 hours a day for seven long days, they took on one of the biggest corporate powers of their time and won big, inspiring hundreds of 1000s of other ordinary sales clerks and who knows who else to stand up or sit down for their rights to claim a living wage. Victory was sweet, but short for the working women of the Woodworth area. Woolworths, they lost their union contract just as it came up for renewal in October 1937, management replaced workers who left the store with anti union workers who had no interest in fighting for a new contract. It's not at all surprising to see a huge inflatable rat up on its hind legs, baring its fangs with claws out at a union strike or picket line demonstration against anti labor companies. Actually, it's kind of weird not to see it. After all, what's a labor dispute without scabby the rat? Yep, that lovable air filled vermin made of weather resistant PVC vinyl has been a labor fixture since the 1980s but like every icon, scabby has a past, and his story begins in 1830 The New York Daily Sentinel, one of America's first daily newspapers, was The first to use the word rat to describe someone who screws over workers the march 13, 1830 edition of the paper quoted a typesetter who used the term to criticize replacement workers who agreed to work at cheaper rates that according to a 2011 American Dialect Society listserv post. The quote is, while the master printers fill their offices with boys and two thirds men, alias rats, it will be difficult to find a remedy. The listserv also cites W Savage's art of printing from 1841 which offers its definition of rat. Quote a compositor or Pressman who execute work at less than the regular prices He is despised by the rest of the workmen. Unquote, during the first half of the 20th century, striking Unionists relied mostly on signs attached to wooden handles, huge cloth and paper banners, body sashes, buttons, body billboards and similar items to send their messages to management. Scabby didn't make his debut until the late 1980s

Fred Kowal: 48:11

Bueller. Bueller,

Mike Lisi: 48:17

thanks to Jim Sweeney at local 150 of the International Union of Operating Engineers in Chicago, hired as an organizer in 1986 Sweeney was tasked by his union to come up with new ways to shame businesses that hire non union labor. Now the union's chief executive, Sweeney said, scabby started out as cartoon mice on picket signs. WGN, Chicago's the workers Mike radio show, which interviewed Sweeney in March 2024 picks up the story from

Unknown: 48:51

here, we started with a cartoon character on a picket sign and then morphed into we had designers make rat suits that quickly became a problem because of the odor that would accumulate inside.

Mike Lisi: 49:04

So Sweeney, according to the local 150 website, spotted an inflatable gorilla outside of a nearby car dealership, and got an idea, if you can't inflate a gorilla, why can't you inflate a rat? Sweeney's first inflatable rat stood about five feet tall with red beady eyes and a snarl. He perched it on top of a school bus, yellow Chevy Caprice, imprinted with the words rat patrol local 150 cartoon rats were on the front doors and ran along the bottom of the car, which the union showed off at all sorts of union events. And yeah, it was popular. In 1990 local 150 held a contest to name the rat, which was then known simply as Mr. Rat, the winning entry, scabby the rat, a jab at scabs, where basically anyone who crosses a picket line to go to. Work during a strike, scabby looks a lot different and a lot more sinister these days. He's still got red beady eyes, but his fangs are bigger and his claws look like they're ready to shred the Ohio based inflatable images, which claims to hold trademark rights to the real scabby sells the inflatable rat in 12 foot or 20 foot sizes. The Associated Press reports that the air filled critters can sell between 8020 $1,000 each. Scabby is also a pop culture darling. The pneumatic rodent made a cameo appearance during the fourth season of HBOs mob drama The Sopranos in 2002 and the big, blown up rat is also protected under the First Amendment, thanks to a series of national labor relation board decisions that culminated with its 2021 ruling that displaying scabby was not confrontational, threatening and coercive. The effect

Unknown: 50:58

that scabby has on rat contractors still amazes me. You just hate to be ashamed like that, and scabby does a great job at shaming them.

Mike Lisi: 51:08

And now here's Fred with Coles coda.

Fred Kowal: 51:11

I'd like to return to a practice that I utilized earlier in our history of doing the voice podcast, and that is to recommend a couple of books to you all faithful listeners at this time when our nation, yes, is at war. I recommend highly. Actually, it's a trilogy of books I'm presently reading, the third volume of Ian tolls trilogy on the Pacific War, World War Two. That is this one is called Twilight of the Gods, war in the western Pacific 1944 to 45

Mike Lisi: 51:47

it is a

Fred Kowal: 51:49

incredibly well written, historically accurate description of the incredible destruction of that war between the Empire of Japan and, for the most part, the United States, but also our allies, the Chinese, the British Australians, New Zealanders and others. What it does is it brings to light how incredibly difficult it was to win that war against fascism, not just the obvious lives that were lost and the destruction, but the incredible commitment of those who were in the waters and on those islands, fighting desperately, oftentimes without the proper equipment and without food, without water. Water was a real issue. And to hear today how the leaders of our nation joke about war and talk about leveling countries, you never heard that from Franklin Roosevelt. You heard about a commitment to freedom, the four freedoms that Franklin Roosevelt talked about. And as you read Ian tolls trilogy, what you sense throughout is the intense commitment on the part of flawed leaders as they were, both military men and the President as they stumble to find the right strategy and tactics, but you also sense the incredible courage of the men and women who were on those islands, on those ships, in Those planes, risking their lives for freedom, to stop the spread of fascism and to see the development in our own nation right now of an authoritarian streak in our leadership. Clearly a man Donald Trump, who has said he can do anything, he has even said, I run the world. That's what we were fighting against in World War Two. That's what my dad's generation fought against, and so many others. And the whole purpose was to maintain democracy and to bring it to where we could, more than anything else, eliminate the threat to our democracy. So do yourself a favor. Pick up the trilogy that Ian toll has written on the Pacific War. And there are other great historians who have done similar works on the war in Europe. And it gives you a sense of the cost that was paid, immense cost, not just into casualties, but long term emotional and psychological costs. You get the sense as to why there was this cost when you read the stories of these battles and the struggles at home too, for the people who lived through it. The second book that I would recommend. Amend, again, really appropriate, given where our world is right now. Is written by a UUP member, a colleague, Robin wall Kimmerer. Dr Robin wall Kimmerer, professor emeritus at the environmental sciences and for College of Environmental Sciences and forestry out in Syracuse the book she wrote. It's a classic work. It's called braiding sweetgrass, and the book is about our connection to nature, whether we want to admit it or not, and how necessary that connection is. It was written a little while ago, but the need for that connection now more than ever is apparent and crucially needed. Some have argued for many, many years, including Kimmerer, that being in a natural world is healing. It brings you balance into your life. And you read these pages, you will be convinced of that reality. I hold out the hope that as we all look towards spring and summer to follow, we will be spending more time outside in public lands, and hopefully that will be a place where we can come together as community, because our nation is torn apart and we need to heal. And I don't know how or when that healing will take place, but it has to start soon, and I can't think of a better way to do it than to understand history and the cost that has been paid for our freedom, for all of our freedom, and then to come together as a people in the healing places of nature so that we can go forward as a nation and a society. Thank you. Good night and good luck.

Mike Lisi: 56:55

The Voice Podcast is a production of United University professions. You can find UUP on Facebook, Instagram, X and blue sky at UUP info. UUP is on the web@uupinfo.org This episode was produced by Mike Lisi. Uups Communication Director, Lynn alderman, is Associate Producer UUP President Fred kowall is host of The Voice podcast Special thanks to the workers Mike podcast, which airs from eight to 9am Sundays on WGN Chicago radio. You can hear the show on demand at WGN radio.com backslash the worker's Mike. You can download the voice podcast theme for free at United University professions.bandcamp.com, thanks for listening. I

Unknown: 58:07

cowry cow.